There is something rotten in the state of DamienMark and the Irish blog awards. I had simply thought it was a harmless bit of nonsense which had some weird quirks and oddities. But that someone could not post during almost the entirely of the period that was stated as a minimum requirement for nomination and yet still win an award is more than odd. That two would do so goes beyond passing strange.
The fact is that no one can independently vouch for the judges because no one outside the inner circle knows who the judges are. The rules or even mere guidelines are lacking to the point of being vapour but even the most lax of rules wouldn't have had two nominees making the short-list for what is meant to be a year's work when they didn't post for most of the year in question. The bald fact is that one of those winners only started to post less than 2 weeks before the deadline, while another took a sabbatical for 8 months only returning to resume posting less than 2 weeks before the deadline.
With this kind of arbitrary inclusion and exclusion it is hard not to see the awards as being more about currying favour and jumping on bandwagons than any sort of real assessment of quality over the course of a year. It's pretty like crowning the league champions on the basis of a few good matches at the end of the season. Having the accolade of being the best for a particular year should mean that you were the best over the course of that period not that you had flashes of excellence here and there. It must be galling for those who lost out that their entire years work wasn't judged to be as good as a few weeks or a couple of months output by someone else.
Then going beyond that we have the peculiar notion that the winner for best newcomer (a nice young lad by all accounts) was heavily promoted by the organiser and his friends.
Then the winner for best blog from a journalist appears to have provided the goodie bags.
That the winner for best current affairs and ultimately the Grand Prix prize for best blog is also a close friend of the organiser shouldn't in the normal run of events be a matter of any concern but with everything else that is going on one can't not mention it. I don't doubt that it is amongst the best in its category but the absolute best?
In the normal run of events, one or or two of the above you could gloss over but all of them? Then you have the all organisational strangeness. Why have no confirmation for registration that people made in December until just 48 hours beforehand? Especially, when you consider that many people had to travel to attend and stay overnight? Why is no confirmation mail sent to those who nominate of their nomination choices so that they have some proof that they did nominate and who they nominated? Why was it that registration for attendance opened weeks in advance of opening the nominations, meaning people who were nominated couldn't register to sit at a event that they should have been the focus of? Why is it that we have no publicly available criteria of what is used for the judging? Why is there no confirmation for people that they applied to be judges? Why is it no one can know who the judges are? I applied to be a judge in 2007 but heard nothing back then, other people I know applied last year but heard nothing back. Yet we're repeatedly told that judging is open to all but that is not true, you can offer to be a judge but the selection of judges is not open. I noticed in my own case some touching on my blog from the judging area of the awards.ie site -I was longlisted for political blog - a few hours before the short-list was posted. Only one of which actually looked at the archive for the previous year. I wouldn't have had me remotely near the short list but it would be good to know you didn't make it having actually been really reviewed not just glanced at at the last minute. I wonder how much assessment was really made of other the categories, was it as superficial as that?
Again, none of these things on their own is proof of misdeeds, indeed taken together they might still be a matter of mere coincidence but the absence of any transparency about proceedings must naturally lead to questions. The notion of Ceasar's wife being above reproach comes to mind. When the process is secret all efforts should be made to ensure that there can be no inference of wrong doing. It might sound dull but the process matters, it takes from the winners that such a cloud should exist over the process and for no good reason either I can understand.
When it comes to our electoral process we don't have people vote then take the votes into a locked room to be countred by only a few people who appointed by the government and who we never get to see and then at the end a government representative would come out and tell us the result. Everyone would look at that and shout fix. Yet the process for the blog awards is little different. Judges are appointed in secret, they judge in secret, their votes are weighed up in secret.
Sure it's a fun night out for those concerned but so too apparently are 12th July parades and lynchings in the deep south on the 1930s were very good at bringing the community (some of it at least) together. Of course, this is nowhere on that scale but the mentality that will be used to defend it is much the same. A group who enjoy one another company refusing to answer any questions about the process involved because it is just a bit of craic. A bit of craic which leads to business being generated for some of those concerned? That sound like a straightforward business promotion to me.
Needless to say none of the actual nominees are in a position can say anything because the temperamental nature of the host is well established at this stage and the potential consequences of making any kind of critique is there for all to see. Since my card is marked anyway I'm saying it, I've nothing to lose by asking merely questions. The wonder is will we see any answers, or will it be a case of simply attack the man and not deal with the questions.
In answering my own question I would say that "no the awards aren't fixed" but they sure as hell seem broken.
100 comments:
Daniel, I'm unsubbing from your RSS feed. You really need to move on, life's too short to be bitchin' and moanin' at everything Damien does.
Sure you have some valid points but short of having a monthly gong for each category and then picking the finalists from this, there is little chance of judges reading 12 months worth of blogs when they (myself included) have quite a few blogs to judge on various specific elements.
If the points (or some at least) are valid then why not have a think about them and respond to them? I can understand people not being able to read everything that someone would have posted in a whole year but that no one noticed that a nominee and now winner only posted so infrequently?
And Damo is hardly the only thing I post about, for sure a couple of posts around now but this is the time of year for this sort of thing. Sorry that you're unsubbing, though I would question this notion of moving on when no one will admit that his behaviour has been out of order. But that's a matter for another time.
I for one think the points raised are valid ones. If there are set rules that qualify or disqualify an entry from being valid for a catagory, then those are RULES. If the terms that define what is and is not a valid entry are moved or rather simply ignored, how seriously can the awards be taken? more than that, there are now people who rightfully SHOULD have won who have been passed over wrongfully. Are they to move on? The point made by donal ignores this, of course people cant read 12 months of blogs, but the winners do not meet the criteria for judging. If a guy enters a dog show with a cat, you cant give him the prize because its a really nice cat.
The fact that a winner was also a goody bag donator is just plain dodgy.
Its not about whether something inappropriate has happened, its about the common sense fact, that if you are running an award, especially in a sector in which you are active, you have to set in place barriers that reassure people of the impartiality of the system. It does not matter if bill bob or harry is a nice guy and would not do such a thing, it should not have to be a matter of trust. It should be a matter of facts.
From the perspective of any outsider looking in, when you look at the points raised in the above, when you dont come in with a prejudice for or against the organisers, there are situations that simply are not fair and a system which is totally opaque.
The big question for me is, why has no one else raised any of these issues if they can be proven to be a fact.
Because the least the people who got potentially shafted deserve, is to have these accusations proven to be true or false.
Maybe daniel has a prejudice against damien, i dont honestly know. But if he did, does that make a lie the truth or vice versa? Investigate the claims, because nothing about the person making the claims, or the persons he makes the claims against can have any rightful bearing on the facts of the situation in any impartial persons mind.
But i dont think that is what people will do. I operate in the creative industry, so i see stuff like this all the time. No one wants to be blacklisted. So everyone will say whatever it takes, to justify the actions of the people they like or stay on the good side of the in crowd.
Anyone who stands up is either already black listed, or does not care if they will be.
Donal,
Hello. I was a judge in 2007. I faced exactly the challenge you highlight: how to judge a year of blogging. What I did was pick five or six dates at random before I read any blog. I then judged on the basis of what I found on those dates and ignored all other dates.
I wrote a long "diary of a judge" post on my blog, thereby making as transparent as I could what I'd done.
A couple of those I'd judged were kind enough to say they thought I'd used a sound method.
You can find my post on this on my blog. It must have been written in February 2007.
As regards your tough comments to Dan. I would like you to clarify "you have some valid points".
I heard this morning that Irish Economy.ie had not posted from July - November 2008. I had it from three sources. I felt perplexed and angry. I'd placed my trust in Damien to ensure the entry criteria were applied. I'd disqualified my own blog because I didn't post actively from July-August 2008 - but I'd posted over 30 posts per month from September -December 2008. I had no problem accepting the entry requirement, but I expected people to disqualify themselves and certainly I am shocked if it is true that one such blog won an award.
Too many Irish people have heaped scorn on whistle-blowers and we see where that's got us in the political economy.
Please check the facts before you rush to defend something that might not be defensible.
Dan,
I've written to Damien Mulley via a comment on his blog asking whether it is indeed that case that Irish Economy.ie was not eligible to be considered.
I also sent the same questions to Irish Economy.ie
Your broadside post may be over the top but until I have reason to think that I'm giving you benefit of the doubt.
I'm afraid I fear that this threatens to damage the reputation of the whole Awards process. It may be that we need to suggest Damien set up an independent organisation to carry out the judging.
I still hope you are completely wrong.
James,
You and I were writing at the same time. I'd just like to say I totally agree with all you say.
But I hope you are wrong about people not being prepared to stand up for doing this right.
This is a new generation in charge. As one of the older generation, 58, I am curious to see what ethics the younger generation of Irish people have?
Indeed, if I'd won an Award, and it was true that one of the categories was won by an ineligible, I'd be leading the charge to have this investigated so that we could be confident in all the other winners.
This is a very tricky post to comment on but from what you have posted it seems to me that any fair minded person would say "Y'know what Dan, the process around the awards could be clearer and it wouldn't be a bad idea if it was fixed."
Having said that, the awards are Damiens basically, and if you want to participate - the rules are his too and at the end of the day it doesn't bother me because hopefully out of the blog awards things will happen for people - connections will be made, partnerships will be forged, book deals might be done, jobs will be had etc etc.
Given the state of the country at the moment, we need each other more than anything and the Blog Awards are an overwhelmingly positive force in the Irish blog scene.
Le craic,
I'd like to comment on your
"the awards are Damiens basically, and if you want to participate - the rules are his too and at the end of the day it doesn't bother me..."
As far as I'm concerned you are entitled to be bothered by whatever you like. I don't need you to be bothered by what bothers me.
But, surely the Awards begun by Damien have grown into such a success that they are no longer his personal property.
For the Awards to continue to have public credibility and an excellent reputation, we need to rules to be reasonable and to be followed.
The Award process needs to be open to scrutiny. Bloggers can't espouse scrutiny and then not welcome it in their own back yard. I hope you'll agree with this view.
I think you need to put all of this in some perspective, the lot of you. The Blog Awards are not the Oscars, a general election or nominations for President. I attended the 2008 awards and have to say that I found the whole event to be a little self-absorbed but hell, I was there too.
Of course eoin, you are right. You are so right, it is almost like you have carved a statue from pure right, and displayed it here, calling it 'ode to right'. It is not the oscars. Its not even the golden globes. But you make this sound like it gives an excuse for anything to happen at a whim. Clearly if the organisers wanted it to be a lawless circlejerk, they would have named it accordingly.
No one here put the rules and criteria in place to determine eligibility for an award. They did. Now if they had not, and it was just a case of, listen were are going to give out awards to those we think deserve it, fine, but you cant set a system of rules in place for all to see, and bring with them the assumption of fairness- then chuck the rules whenever it pleases. It is being one thing while wearing the skin of something a great deal more moral. Its the IRISH BLOG AWARDS, and if you take a title like that, and set up rules for it, you have to stay the course and follow them.
I mean good god, the very hint of dodgyness in a blue peter phone in compo is investigated. Sure it aint the oscars, but tell me the irish blog awards ranks above the oppertunity to name a small dog for a childrens tv show in terms of its self regulation and moral fairness.
I mean, the real crap hits the fan if someone out there was not as concerned as omaniblog, and entered having not met the criteria for entry, and was rejected because they didnt meet said criteria. If that has happened, then the fact that another person with the same issue was accepted and then won the award would make the irish blog awards reputation beyond recovery.
Le craic, "Having said that, the awards are Damiens basically, and if you want to participate" in a way I think you're correct in that they are his. It is just that when you put Irish in front of them then it creates the impression they are everyone's. I'm a process person and believe that getting the process right is just as important as getting the right result. I have a personal dislike for the idea of putting one's trust in kings and princes, the old benevolent despot is still a despot at the end of the day.
Anyway, I can't see any circumstances in which I'd be posting on this again unless something very strange or unusual happens.
Yes, it's obvious that Damien goes to the trouble of organising the awards, gets lots of judges to rate/review the nominated sites, takes and collates all that information, then picks the winners himself.
The fact that a winner was also a goody bag donator is just plain dodgy.
No, it's not. It's great that someone in the blogging community was able to get business from the blog awards and, I'm sure, was paid for it.
To suggest that he was rewarded further with an award is ludicrous, not to mention downright insulting to someone who has a very good blog as well as the other nominees.
Some people need to pull their heads out of their arses, step back, and think about what they're suggesting/insinuating.
Twenty, I didn't say "Damien goes to the trouble of organising the awards, gets lots of judges to rate/review the nominated sites, takes and collates all that information, then picks the winners himself."
What I did say that I think the judging appears patchy and inconsistent when two can win without posting according to what were the rules. And when something like that happens it muddies the water such that other stuff which is in all likelihood fine looks worse than it really is.
Anyway, if he was picking the winners himself then he'd only be doing it in accordance with the wishes of Xenu and for that we should all be grateful.
Author's note, I've use fixed in the sense of repair which you'll see makes sense when you get to the end of the post. It comes from a response that Ewan Spence had to a post of mine on the Eurovision last year.
Excellent points made here all round.
When I have time later on I'm going to write a post for my own site with my own two cents and I'm going to call it "blogging a dead horse". Just wanted first dibs on the title ;-)
Then going beyond that we have the peculiar notion that the winner for best newcomer (a nice young lad by all accounts) was heavily promoted by the organiser and his friends.
Then the winner for best blog from a journalist appears to have provided the goodie bags.
That the winner for best current affairs and ultimately the Grand Prix prize for best blog is also a close friend of the organiser shouldn't in the normal run of events be a matter of any concern but with everything else that is going on one can't not mention it.
Dan, you didn't actually say 'Damien picks the winners' but the above selection shows that is very much what you were insinuating.
That Damien has, in effect, ensured that his friends and people he does business with have won awards.
If there are questions to be asked about the way some of the blogs were judged or entered then I think it's entirely fair to ask those questions.
However, if you're going to suggest that Damien fixes awards for his friends, then come right out and say that. Say it to Suzy. Say it to me. Say it to Rick O'Shea. Say it to all the winners because you think their awards are tainted. Say it to those who lost because they only lost because it was a fix.
Don't dress it up and fanny around it in some kind of faux concern over procedure.
20 major. My take on the original post is that he suggests the awards are in no way thrown/fixed but that the sum of a great many small oddities and botches paint an un-naturally darker picture.
Polarising the sides of the argument by throwing that comment into his mouth about the organiser picking the winners is at best, unfair.
That is certainly not my side of the argument, as you would suggest it is by quoting me.
Why is it you have all the time in the world to consider the feelings of the award winners, but you make no judgement on the issues raised in the op post in regards people winning who literally should not have been eligible.Comment on that, give me one reason that should be ignored and why those people should be ignored.
You can sit there and declare others to have their heads up their arses, however at least i can take comfort in the realisation that it is in fact my own arse, so i am at the very least introspective on the matter.
So maybe you should put your head up your arse, as i have, as a tool of contemplation and introspection. The issues raised by the op post are indeed serious ones and really do require people to step back and think, and each and every one should be checked out.
And thats all im asking for, is for people in charge, to step back, think, look at the events from an objective eye, and realise things could be done in a way that eliminated the hundred innocent brush strokes that paint the darker (if untrue) portrait of events.
And yes it is dodgy sounding re the goody bags. Of course it is. You dont think it is because you are in said community. You probably have met the guy.
Totally distance yourself from the situation. Take the oscars comparison from earlier. Lets say will smith is up for best actor. will smith's side project/company does not then supply the goody bags. He does not because if he did people can then say. 'Will smith supplied the goody bags and won an oscar ZOMG RIGGED'. It places Will and the oscars in a compromised position if he does this. It does not matter if he did something bad or not, it does not matter that will smith is a great guy above suspicion.
The blog awards do a lot for their community. But professional common sense distance needs to be applied to their running. Whether they do or not is no skin off my nose, especially given it is now protected from external attack within my ass.
But a few more years worth of little innocent oddities is just going to build and build the problem until there are so many instances which support the idea that something is amiss, even when in truth there is not, that that truth of that innocence will be buried by the weight of the numerous but coherent misconceptions. In every person passed up for an award in favour of someone who was not even elligible for it, is the seed of this discontent.
The warning flag has been raised, do what you will about it or not, but better to do it now, so that this time next year no such topic could be made.
Your second post proves my point totally 20 major. say it to me suzy etc etc. For you, its personal, its about people. And you overlay that personalisation of the situation to others, you erode your argument. You stand up for the people you care about because you feel they are being attacked. You can level the hate card at the op, but you cant level it at me. So debate with me, and see how strong your argument is.
Twenty, this is not "some kind of faux concern over procedure." it is really about procedure and process. I don't think there is any corruption here I do think there is a degree of incompetence though.
Fix the process so that there came be no incorrect inferences drawn from associations and everything would be fine and dandy.
There are competitions that are voted on and they are open to manipulation in one form or another, the alternative is to have judging and we all know that can be tampered with too (French ice skating judges what?). But secret judging that is just too shallow to even catch that blogs don't adhere to the rules? What reason would an outsider have to believe that the judging that took place elsewhere was in any way consistent or fair. That is my point, people who are Damien's friends shouldn't have to remove themselves from competing because the process is so secretive. The reason the process should be open and transparent is so that no one should have any doubt about the outcomes as a consequence of the process. Suzy and the rest deserve that much.
Someone looking at this from the outside and seeing a judging process that would make such basic mistakes as to ignore the only stated rule and then seeing the other things would easily take the view, incorrectly in my opinion, that there was something wrong with their awards.
I don't think they're fixed at all, it's simply a case of Irish blogging being a relatively small circle, which therefore makes it look like everyone knows each other. i wasn't involved in judging, but i personally know a good few people who were shortlisted. it would therefore be a little difficult for me to be impartial, and that is probably the case for a good few people.
i agree that it's easy to feel blacklisted by damien, but i like to think he'd be above that. I hope so, because he shouldn't be so personally connected to something called the Irish Blog Awards if not.
Ultimately, though, they're a small operation and mistakes will happen.
Oh dear christ, there's always one or two that have to have their pound of flesh after the awards, isn't there? No doubt you think this is a good way of bumping your stats and getting people to RSS you?
And wait - you forgot to mention that Blacknight won best business blog and they have provided the hosting for the awards.ie site for the past 3 years! Surely it must have been a fix!! I mean, it could have nothing to do with the way that Michele has been blogging his arse off all year, that couldn't possibly be the reason....
Grow up and learn that the irish blogosphere is a small community that merges in large part with the irish technical community. There's always going to be overlap between the people that sponsor and the people that are nominated/win. You can't win a category you sponsor, that's a hard and fast rule. But if you locked every sponsor out of being nominated, then a lot of them might choose to stop their sponsorship.
And without sponsorship, the awards would be nothing. You might prefer them to be a €100-a-head evening to cover the costs, but most folk I think will agree with me that we like the costs to be covered by the sponsors, so that we can use our "entry fee" to go to charity.
Grow up and shut up would be my advice.
Elly, the main problem here is the two winners who weren't actively posting between July 15th and Dec 15th, not the sponsorship which I mentioned only in passing.
No one so far who is critical of this post is saying anything about that which either means that people realise it is a problem and just hope it will go away or they think it's ok.
Yes Dan, we do think it's OK. You're the only one out there (OK, along with omaniblog) that is reading the "actively between July and Dec" to mean that they needed to be posting every day during all that time.
Everyone else is reading it the way that it's meant, that the blog showed some activity between those dates. Another blog i know of was pulled from best newcomer because they started less than 2 weeks outside the newcomer timeframe, even though they began after last years awards (which were a little later in the year).
The reason that everyone is responding back to the comments about the sponsors and the friends of Damien is because more that half your post is complaining about that, we're responding to your words. Plus, most of the people in the irish blogosphere ARE friends of Damien's - and I for one, am insulted by all your insinuations.
Dan/James - I said 'If there are questions to be asked about the way some of the blogs were judged or entered then I think it's entirely fair to ask those questions'.
Feel free to ignore that again, if you like.
Dan has suggested that Damien gives awards to his friends/business partners. He might not have had the balls to say it outright, he dressed it up conspiracy theory style, so why shouldn't someone defend Damien's integrity and the integrity of the awards in general?
Because that kind of spurious thinking is insulting to everybody who has won an award (as I have done) and those who have lost out.
I'm not sure exactly what you want me to debate with you, James.
The goodie bag thing is not dodgy. Just because you say it's dodgy doesn't make it so. Will you go over to Markham's site and tell him that essentially you think he won because of the goodie bags.
Will you go to Suzy's site and tell her she only won because she's a close friend of Damien?
Or are you happy here in your little playground, throwing around vague accusations without having the courage to come out and say what you really think?
Elly, I haven't said people need to be posting everyday. If all that mattered as that one should start posting before Dec 15th then why the reference to July 15th at all? Or why use the word "between"? I think most people would read it as it is written that you are active over the course of that time period.
"Plus, most of the people in the irish blogosphere ARE friends of Damien's" I think that is undoubtedly true and it is probably shaping the responses more rather than the points made. What would be wrong with an open transparent process?
Twenty, "Dan has suggested that Damien gives awards to his friends/business partners." I have not suggested that, if I thought that I'd just say it. I have suggested the opposite in fact and said that the process is such that someone from outside could wrongly make such a claim based on the associations that exist and there is nothing to refute it because the process is unknown and it would seem arbitrary and that to avoid that happening the process should be open in future. What is wrong with doing that?
Twenty, I'm surprised at you really if this was a bankers do or a local dog kennel competition you'd be all over it talking bout the involvement of the freemasons and conspiracies all over the place.
I think you've made some valid points Dan. Hopefully someone will be able to explain asap...
Dan, besides here on this site (and leaving aside the obvious issues you have with Damien), I haven't read one single complaint about any of the winners elsewhere.
This was my 3rd blog awards - not once, not even when in the throes of drink late into the night, have I heard anyone suggest that there is/was anything untoward with the winners, how they were chosen or anything else.
The one thing I will say for you, Dan, is that you're mastering the art of saying one thing and meaning another, like a good politician.
Twenty, "Dan has suggested that Damien gives awards to his friends/business partners." I have not suggested that, if I thought that I'd just say it. I have suggested the opposite in fact and said that the process is such that someone from outside could wrongly make such a claim based on the associations that exist and there is nothing to refute it because the process is unknown and it would seem arbitrary and that to avoid that happening the process should be open in future. What is wrong with doing that?
Fantastic. But the fact is you drew attention to what you consider to be anomolies and it's quite clear what you are trying to insinuate, so please do us a favour and don't insult our itelligence by saying you suggested just the opposite.
Twenty, you're right that almost no one else has said anything about it - though omaniblog has posted about it on foot of things here.
As for problems with Damien, isn't it the other way around? I'm not modding out or altering his comments or claiming that he's outside my house in a car with a telescopic lens.
The anomalies are in the first paragraph and later where I query the organisational problems around letting people have confirmation for nominations and registration and so on.
The odd fact that the stuff in the middle is getting all the attention, if it has come across as more heavy handed than I intended then I'm sorry for that but that wasn't the main thrust of the post. I do think it is peculiar that the best newcomer would be someone that was heavily promoted by the organiser amongst others, would that all new bloggers had such bigging up in the run up. People are free to disagree with me on that and I with them. All kinds of people donate to the goody bags, it would be hard to avoid some overlap but since I was mentioning the other stuff it would be remiss of me not to have mentioned it. As for Suzy, I'd have had Cedar Lounge for the Grand Prix prize but that's just me. The problem is not who won, but the process used to get a winner. You're making it solely about the winners instead of talking about the process at all. I spoke about the process for the most part in the post but had to make some reference to some winners as illustration of the potential for inference. Seeking to gloss over problems in the process because you feel that the right result was got in the end. You did say "'If there are questions to be asked about the way some of the blogs were judged or entered then I think it's entirely fair to ask those questions'. But nothing more on it.
Same comment as I've just left at Omaniblog, but goes as well for here:
I was in favour of these so-called "Irish Blog Awards" when they were first being mooted (full disclosure: this was in large part to tweak the Freedom Institute's nose at their own outrageously rigged effort of the same name at the time). But I have to admit that I've been disappointed since at the secrecy, defensiveness and, well, exhibited cliquism of the whole affair since. (Raising this actually got me permanently banned off both Mulley's personal website and his 'Blog Awards' site. So much for openness!).
I genuinely think that it would be a great improvement in terms of transparency if they were removed from being tied to the (sometimes incendiary) Mulley ego. Can it be so hard to find a board of uncontroversial choices to take over the running of this? Everyone would, I think, be much better off with such an arrangement.
Now, I don't think it's rigged, and I don't think that the appearance of that accusation elsewhere here is anything other than a strawman. Yet it certainly is badly served by how it's being run (by a one-man PR firm) at the moment.
Omani seems like a bit of a crank, although perhaps he's just righteous in his pursuit of justice.
From what I can see the blog that won was within the rules.
Anyway, you posted what you posted. I think it's entirely up to the organisers how much they want to make public with regards how the process works. Didn't Omani himself write a big post on how much work went into the judging last year?
My thoughts are very simple - that a lot of hard work and effort goes into creating the awards each year. That Damien would then use that to give gongs to his friends does not ring true to me and I think, however vaguely you did it, it's wrong to suggest otherwise.
Look at the posting order 20 major. The comment which i 'ignored by you' was made at the same time you were writing. So you cant really say i ignored it, when the post was made at the same time. I added a second smaller post after concerning your mention of all the various people i know nothing of.
You want to talk about accusations, how many have you made ?
And now you come at me with the same crap? You try and make it personal with a person you know nothing of. Go on to this persons site and say this to their face etc? What age are you? Seriosuly dude. Who are suzie and this guy and that guy. I have no idea, nor care overly.
But you do, you want to make it about people. What you choose to ignore, again and again, is my posts are not about people. You claim i lack courage to say what i really think?? I have been speaking plainly, but you through this comment reveal a wish to suggest a 'hidden motive' on my part.
On what do you base this, on what well thought out understanding of my personality do you base this? Why do you try and drag me down to your level of person based conflict.
At no point have i said that anything underhand went on, to the contrary i have saild plainly that nothing underhanded went on, but that the methods used were not provind the professional distance required. You cant understand this because all you think about in regards to this situation is people by name. Suzie this damien that dan the other. I dont care about any of that, all i care about is the facts of the situation. You are unwilling to speak on the situation on that level, your posts prove this.
So what i really think has been stated once again very plainly. Whether you choose to believe it or not i dont care. you need to seriously, seriously re read my last post, because you managed to 90 percent of it if you are able to tell me i am suggesting there is a credible link between the goody bags and getting the award. I mean there is literally paragraphs and paragraphs of me saying nothing has gone on. I mean literally 5-6 paragraphs.
So take your comments about vague accusations and place in the bin, i have made none. All im saying is people need to do things a little more cleanly so these situations cant arise. But of course, its so much earier to argue your side if you place hidden motives and accusations and cowardice and all those other wonderful polarising ideas into it. And hey even of none of those things are part of my argument, you are more than happy to just say thay are and work from there.
Well, no dice, its not going to happen. You will neither personalise my position, not will you cloud it. You will not place words, or accusation in my mouth. You will not get away with attacking me rather than my position. I just wont let it fly. I will say it only one last time, any possible situations that can compromise the awards should be avoided. A little forethought goes a long way.
Talk to me again when you can make a post that does not reference people on a first name basis.
If you don't know who any of these people are, then what exactly is your interest in all this?
If you could answer me as briefly as possible I'd appreciate it. I'm not sure I can bear another of your semi-coherent rambles.
Oh, I do love a good ding dong.
Right,
I usually stay well clear of handbag events like this, so I am going to try and make my own thoughts brief and clear.
First. This is the blogosphere guys. I now have that sung refrain from the Big Brother 1 series playing at the back of my head now (for which many thanks, guys!): 'It's only a gameshow; it's only a gameshow'...
Second. Whilst I get the point being made about the success of the Awards, it remains Damien's property. It may be considered by some a public good, but it is sustained by hard work and market buy in. That's his, not yours or mine to dispose of as he sees fit.
Three. I'm with Elly on the interpretation thing. If someone had posted something excellent only once in the time, I'd regard that as in if were me and my awards.
Four. Well, there is no four; it's just a suggestion. A certain amount of secrecy is desirable in the judging process. Judges must be free to say things they might not want to repeat in public. It makes for a more robust result if people can be frank IMHO.
What we did with the Slugger Awards was to accompany a shortlist of three with an account of why in general the judges felt these people (or blogs) were considered winners or close winners.
The reasoning then was that at least the discussions arising would have some real content to fuel their angry controversies.
On a point of clarification:
my view is that to be eligible a blog should have posted "actively" from 15 July to 15 December.
I did not say, nor did I mean, that a blog had to be posting every day.
At least once a week would have been enough. At least once a month too. But nothing in July, August, September, October, November certainly not.
Omani,
You see the problem with that interpretation though: it requires a specific qualification. In such circumstances, I tend to plump for Occum's Razor. For me it's just sloppy wording; and probably nothing more.
The Blog Award consist only of a domain name an Damien's energy - nothing else. And I suspect if Damien stopped organising it, it would cease completely.
The judging may not be perfect but it too is voluntary. Of course the judges identity should be secret - otherwise far fewer people would volunteer to do it. No method is perfect - when nominations were based on numbers of votes (i.e. a straight popularity contest), a few bloggers tried to game the system.
The questions that you raise in your post reminds me of when I used to organize table-quizes. There was always a few people who questioned the rules to the nth degree and lose sight of the fact that it is only meant to be a bit of fun.
"Sure it's a fun night out for those concerned but so too apparently are 12th July parades and lynchings in the deep south on the 1930s were very good at bringing the community (some of it at least) together."
Daniel, it is very hard to take your arguments seriously when you write something like this.
I'm not having a go at you, but I think the quirks and foibles of the Awards are simply the results of well-intentioned people trying to balance the fun and fairness aspects of the Awards with all the other demands on their time, rather than a conspiracy of any sort.
BR,
John
I don't have to know the people making the blogs to have an interest, i dont even need to know the people to read their blogs. I read wil wheatons blog and i neither know him nor care for him. My interest in this is that issues have been raised about fairness in a system, and the first reply reminded me a great deal of the time someone tried to black list me in creative circles for disagreeing with them.
After a while my interest was sustained by the increasingly personalised and illogical nature of the attacks on those who were speaking out or even suggesting any kind of investigation,your calling that guy a crank for instance.
Thanks though, for proving all my points about your argument so well in such a small post, making personal insults, trying to bring the debate to being about me rather than the issues. Nice work.
I hope once again the issues raised at the beginning of this blog can be avoided in future blog awards. I hope enough objecive level heads can be brought in to make that happen. As for me, im going back to reading wesley crushers blog, because i gotta tell you after seeing the big players in irish bloging acting like this in the comments here, my interest in the irish blog sphere is in negative numbers.
Greetings to you all,
May I draw your attention to the comment sent to my blog by one of the judges - who has blogged about how she judged.
I have put the comment up as a separate post.
Also, another judge has written a comment on her blog saying that she interpreted the rules as I have.
PS: I have encouraged people to look to this blog as the most substantial discussion of the issues at stake
Why do you hope anything about the way the awards is run, James? Why the great interest in how an awards ceremony which has little to do with you is run?
And at no point did I resort to personal insults, it was merely a comment on your writing style.
Omani - what is it you're looking for in all this?
I was interested to read this post as I wrote a bit about all this earlier today.
Like I said then, I was a judge and I interpreted the rules to mean that the blog had to be actively blogging in the time from July to December. in each round of judging, marks were given for consistency of posting and I gave low marks to blogs that didn't start until way after July in every part of the judging criteria as I just reckoned they were ineligible. I read the posts in the July to December period only when judging the blogs. I am not the only judge who interpreted the rules that way either.
It seems now that I was unfair as all anyone had to do was to post at least once in the time period to be eligible.
And I meant to say, I really don't think the awards are fixed, but I do think this point about time periods needs to be clarified.
Mick,
1) You've admitted to watching series 1 BB!
2) I'll go along with the idea of these being Damien's awards and the responsibility for how they are run and perceived is his problem. The perceptions people have are their own to make.
3) I'd be fine with the Elly interpretation of the dates if we were talking about the best post in a category. I thought blogs were about things like ongoing engagement and work that happens over a period of time. Otherwise people should just post at the end of the year when the awards come around.
As for the non-4) my own version of a judging process would something along the lines that the (a) judges are named for each category post the awards, (naming people beforehand would leave them open to pressurising), (b) that at the very least all the judges are made aware of the scores given by other judges post the event, so they aren't influenced by group think but they do know that more than one person will see their scores. Doing those two things would mean the judges could then at least police themselves and be seen to do so. If people know that they will be identified with their work after the fact then they tend do it properly. There are for sure judges who take the whole thing really seriously but it would seem too there must be some who just glance over stuff, look at the homepage and leave it at that.
I’ve overhaul the nomination and registration process so that those nominating get a confirmation mail with their registration/nominations when they make them.
That some guidelines or rules should exist for judging (I would have thought at this point that there would be an evolving process that would allow new judges to draw on what prior judges had learned) that everyone would know about and that there be some level of supervision of this. The idea that one judge might look at just the most recent posts (hence seeing only stuff from the Feb. just passed) while another looks back over the year, while yet another perhaps prints off pages of posts and drops them down the stairs to give them an order and no one at any point is any the wiser seems a bit off to me.
I don't believe for a moment that Damien is deciding the winners himself. Let’s face it the night itself is much enjoyed by all of those in attendance, it is the process around it that really needs some work. If it's just about the night then bin the awards completely and just organise a night out. Maybe the two roles could be split to take the load off and let him be the impresario on the night while others take the lead leading up to the night; however I can’t see him ever going for that.
Dan, I think if you'd have done a very clear and clinical post about the process of the awards and left out all the other stuff about winners, sponsors etc. it would have carried more weight.
Tbh, I hadn't consider the addition of "Irish" in the title to confer anything other than there being nothing else they could be called. i.e. the "Sponsor name" awards? It's Irish blogs, so the title of Irish would naturally go in there. Who's to say someone won't set up a "Irish Spirit Blog Awards" or an "O2 Irish Blog Awards" or something...
Any commenter who has lashed you here is lashing out at the fact that a line was crossed in some of your comments. That said, if they can't see the valid points you do make around the process, well that's just a case of love being blind and friendship pretending not to notice.
Omaniblog, I don't disagree with what you say and to repeat the above - there's nothing to stop someone with time and energy to do their own blog awards.
I think Twenty is being a little disingenuous or else doesn't pay that much attention to other bloggers outside his own circle if he really hasn't heard complaints about the winners of the blog awards until now. There certainly were complaints last year. Moreover, if there isn't transparency in the voting process, there's no way of knowing if the criteria purportedly used to choose winners are the actual ones used, so he cannot prove the awards are not fixed any more than anyone can prove they are fixed. Other than the organiser himself, that is.
All anyone can do, as I said over at Omani's blog, is judge the worth of these awards on the quality of the winners. Some short-listed contestants may feel hard-done by losing to blogs that haven't posted for over half the year. They can console themselves, perhaps, that maybe the awards don't actually signify very much of any consequence.
I would just like to note that Dan compared the Irish blog awards to hanging black men from trees just for being black. That is all.
Dan,
I'm afraid Fergal has you on that hostage to fortune. As for your suggestions on process, if Damien picks them up and uses them for next year, you should consider invoicing him for the consultancy... ;-)
Watch this space...
If a blog starts in Dec, then it's physically impossible for it to have any posts before then. If that blog is then posted on regularly, why on earth should it be judged any differently from another blog that was started 7 or 8 months earlier? People don't start blogs just because they want to win an award!
Same thing applies to a blog taking a sabbatical. If this was done on purpose and then the blogger came back when they wanted to start posting, why should they not be judged on when they did post?
And yes, you've pissed a hell of a lot of people off with your comments about sponsors and friends of the organisers/judges. Were you even there on Sat night? All I saw was a friendly crowd of people mixing, smiling, laughing and joking. We're a small crowd in global terms, so we do tend to know a lot of each other and yes, we are friends.
Mick, it's a note to myself in future to avoid twentyesque hyperbole. That said I wasn't thinking I was making a direct comparison, just trying to point out in advance that the "it's all good craic" defence isn't much cop and it's not you know. Still point noted.
Elly, I didn't set the rules or select the dates. I've simply pointed out that they weren't followed and that when rules aren't followed the process lacks credibility. I'm not exactly sure what you're suggesting but it sounds like if someone posted for the first time on Dec 15th and then posted regularly from then on they should be included when judging? There are a number of other judges who have posted on Mick's and omani's blogs that they're understanding of active blogging between July 15th and Dec 15th is the same as mine and they were judging. So it would appear that some judges did one thing while others did another?
No I wasn't there on Saturday. Given the reaction to my registering to attend last year and the 'loss' of my registration this year I reckoned it was sensible to take the hint. Reckon I was right too.
I think Twenty is being a little disingenuous or else doesn't pay that much attention to other bloggers outside his own circle if he really hasn't heard complaints about the winners of the blog awards until now. There certainly were complaints last year
I don't have a circle.
If there were complaints point me in the direction of the posts, I'd be happy to read them.
Mick, it's a note to myself in future to avoid twentyesque hyperbole
I dunno, perhaps if your artistic skills are up to scratch you might consider some cartooning at the New York Post.
Twenty, if we're getting all artistic about stuff and having read book two all I can say in response is that's €8.99 and a few hours reading time I'd really like to have back again.
Yep, that's about all you can say.
Tbh, I hadn't consider the addition of "Irish" in the title to confer anything other than there being nothing else they could be called. i.e. the "Sponsor name" awards? It's Irish blogs, so the title of Irish would naturally go in there. Who's to say someone won't set up a "Irish Spirit Blog Awards" or an "O2 Irish Blog Awards" or something..
Well, f*ck me. I think I'll go set up something I'm going to call the "Irish Army" then, just for a laugh.
*click, click. clickclickclick*
What's that then, Skippy? Someone might confuse it with the Defence Forces? Cor, blimey!
And yes, you've pissed a hell of a lot of people off with your comments about sponsors and friends of the organisers/judges.
I think you mean 'organiser' (singular), dear. The "Irish Blog Awards" are a production brought to you by Mulley Plc.
I'm just wondering...does this qualify as a "gate"?
If so what do we call it...MulleyGate?
The blog awards have reached a level of profile where they have grown beyond the ability of Dan and his friends to organise. There is a clear bias towards a certain small clique of blogs and bloggers. Yes anyone can get nominated onto the long-long list but the same old names appear on the long list and the short list. It isn't even clear how you get onto the long list.
Either Damien should bring in independent judges or it is time for an alternative independent set of awards.
Dan,
Please read this (http://expad.ie/2009/01/21/blog-idol-vote-for-somebody-else/) then come back to me and say I was courting votes. I never thought I'd make the shortlists, and openly expressed that I should not be put forward.
Sponsoring the blog awards with goodie bags was a commercially-minded decision, taken very late in the day, but before the shortlists were announced. If I honestly believed it would influence the judging, I would have removed myself from the running. Having judged previous awards myself, I know that the criteria are set.
Best of luck with your Senate run. We need discerning, deliberate minds like yours in times like these.
I really like cake, especially chocolate cake.
Right, I've gone and published my two cents, and it's called, like I said, "blogging a dead horse".
@ Dan & Omani...something in my waters tells me we won't up for Fluffy Links for a while...
@EWI:
I think you mean 'organiser' (singular), dear. The "Irish Blog Awards" are a production brought to you by Mulley Plc.
No, I was referring to all the people that help organise. Mulley may be the lead man, but there's a whole team behind him that help out - for example the volunteers that sat on the registration desk, or Brian Green that DJ's every year, or Rick O'Shea that gives him presenting time for free. If you attended and listed to the speeches or even read the awards blog then you'd know that Mulley doesn't do everything by himself.
Read your blog JL, but cant seem to post on it.
While the answer given by damien RE the meaning of the blog period in the rules is of course important, just as important is the fact that numerous judges have come forward since this began saying they took the opposite meaning to damiens and marked down blogs heavily for not posting actively through the whole period in question.
So there was without a doubt an ambiguity in the terms which lead to people being treated unfairly by some judges. It's not a huge deal, as you say the awards have come and gone, at the very least we know it wont happen again.
Wow, amazing to see so many people commenting here - and more importantly, so many people playing the ball and not the man.
For what it's worth, as someone who watches all this with great interest, the Irish Blog Awards are flawed becaue of the lack of transparency, a lack of transparency which many bloggers would rightly decry if they saw it in operation elsewhere
Question for the organisers - why do you not reveal who the list of judges are? Why is this kept secret? Why do you not release the judges comments on each blog? Surely, in the name of true openness and transparency, you could do this. I think until this "anonymous" judging flaw is sorted that the Irish Blog Awards will always suffer
I can't believe that there's so much of an argument over a preposition. It's surreal.
However, I tend to go along with Mick's view that, at its worst, this is a case of ambiguous phrasing which allows two or more possible interpretations of a qualifying rule.
Omani and Dan and co adhere to one meaning, that you must have been actively blogging from the earlier date to the later one, others hold to the view that the rule means you have to have been actively blogging between those dates but it doesn't necessarily mean you had to start blogging at the first date and continue blogging until the second one.
Anyhow, an alternative scenario: If Dan and Omani's interpretation were used and therefore The Irish Economy Blog didn't get an award, it could mean that Damien would be open to the same level of comment that he has been subjected to up to now.
Because of the two possible interpretations, I think the benefit of the doubt had to be extended to The Irish Economy blog. Therefore think this entire argument is farcical and if I were Damien, I would be asking myself whether it would be worth my while to draw this trouble upon myself next year by organising these awards.
I'm grateful to have been the recipient of an award but I'm even more glad that the awards were there in the first place. Thanks to all concerned, Damien, the sponsors, etc.
The interpretation given by Dan and Omani and several of the judges seems to me to be by far the more sensible. If you tell me that Queen Victoria ruled between 1837 and 1901, I don't assume you meant that she ruled "at some point" between those dates, but that she ruled from 1840 to 1901. Moreover, the use of the term "ACTIVELY blogging" seems to seal that interpretation. It's different from saying "needs to have blogged at some point" between July and December.
It's more than just an argument over terminology, however, because it casts suspicion over winners who only blogged briefly during that period, and indeed, for less than half the year, yet still were considered better than their rivals on the short list. What does that say about the quality of the other entrants?
Twenty Major, you don't have a circle? Clearly I was referring to all those people who told you your victory last year was thoroughly deserved. Did nobody tell you that it wasn't?
Twenty Major, you don't have a circle? Clearly I was referring to all those people who told you your victory last year was thoroughly deserved. Did nobody tell you that it wasn't?
Your version of clearly and mine are very different.
And to answer your question, no, nobody did. But perhaps you, a year on, might have the balls to do it. Either way it makes no difference to me.
Here's my thinking - those people who have a problem with the way the current blog awards are run could just as easily go and set up their own awards show.
The Blogging Awards of Ireland or The Real Irish Blog Awards.
So like darts or boxing there could be different champions for the same shit. Cranks like Omani and Dan can ensure that their ceremony is flawless, open, transparent and any other buzz words they'd like to use.
Those who agree with them will no doubt give them as much as help as they can in terms of organising the event, the trophies, the venue, the publicity and everything else.
I'm quite sure they're not the sort of people who would just bitch on a website and not give a hand with the nitty gritty of it all.
And the current Irish Blog Awards can continue as they have done for the past four years to the enjoyment of nearly everybody who has taken part.
Sounds reasonable to me.
Twenty, I've previously offered to judge, an offer that wasn't taken up. I'm aware that others have too over the last few years and not heard anything back. You getting the under the impression from somewhere that all offers of help with the nitty gritty are taken up. They're not.
Interesting that you focus on "the event, the trophies, the venue, the publicity" when the rest of us are talking about the process to decide who gets an award and not the PR fun side of the IBAs. If the night out is the most important thing then just bin the awards and have a straight-forward shindig. If they're just meant to be a PR event then good luck to them let them be that so long as everyone knows that.
I'm not aware that open and transparent are buzz words.
Twenty,
The BAI or the RIBA? Splitters!! http://url.ie/18c6
Interesting that you focus on "the event, the trophies, the venue, the publicity" when the rest of us are talking about the process to decide who gets an award and not the PR fun side of the IBAs.
You can have processes coming out of your arse, you still have to organise the thing, Dan.
I'm not aware that open and transparent are buzz words.
In this discussion that's exactly what they appear to be.
Niall, heh, that kind of thing, yeah.
I have refrained from posting on this becuase the discussion seems to be going around in circles, But I think it hilariously funny to see Twenty Major calling other people cranks..... I assume he would know all about that kind of thing after all.
Write what you know. Isn't that what they say?
Meh. The fact that nobody told you, Twenty, should have made you wonder whenther or not you were living in a bubble. Bubbles are circular. Alright then, spherical. This conversation is circular.
Mind reading is beyond me, Ben. Apologies.
You're right about this conversation though. Cheers.
My view of it.
My view
So according to Elly and
Major, someone who posted just one word in one post before Dec 15 would qualify as "actively posting" and some of the people asking questions about are cranks.
The winner of the best newcomer category had done a lot more posting than the blog that won the food and drink section. Shouldnt these new blogs that have only been around a couple of months have to go through the newcomer stage in the first year and only qualify for the other categories when they establish themselves?
I think these blogs should have been in the best newcomer category until they prove they can last and that would stop all the complaints.
Major should keep his comments to the issues instead of attacking people like he wants to shut them up. Even if Daniel K is a crank (whatever that is) he is still entitled to ask questions.
I can see what Daniel K was asking about but it is a pity he mentioned other things as well because that gave Major and the rest of them an excuse to change the subject.
Some of the judges have also said that they did not give points to blogs because they thought they did not qualify. Other people have said that they did not allow themselves to be nominated because they were not actively posting between July and December. I would like to know does Major think all these people are cranks?
I think they are sincere and their questions deserve respect not insults.
Hey, last year I lost out to Rick - the guy actually presenting the awards! This makes Watergate, 9/11 (you never know), and the JFK assassination seem like the smallest of potatoes. Mulley? History's greatest monster.
Wait. Stop. Hang on.
You're right!
I'm one of Damien's mates and I've only ever won once in the 4 years we've been doing this nonsense!!!!!
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